Timothy
Men of Steel 
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
Posts: 8,716
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Post by Timothy on May 6, 2008 16:13:19 GMT -5
Split from: Favorite+hero%3FI like the punisher and would classify him personally as a hero. His methods are brutal, but necessary and effective. I don't think it's possible to have a hero who never kills, there's just too many nuts out there who would kill before letting themselves be captured, even if it's themselves. I personally think that the punisher's justice is more ideal than Bats.' I was inspired by the above post to create this philosophical thread regarding both character's methods. Is it better to dispose of criminals like the Punisher so that they may never harm again? Or, should heroes reserve judgments of life and death for other authorities? In the case of the latter, if it's wrong for heroes to dispense with criminals but okay for vigilantism to exist, what does that say about a society? Ah, such is the complexity of characters like the Punisher and Batman 
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Post by Papa Smurf on May 7, 2008 16:36:04 GMT -5
I'm going to go with Miss Wolf on this one. When a hero like Superman or Batman just punish villians by sending them into a place like arkham, the villians always escape and kill more people. Anti-heros like the punisher who kill the criminal end up saving more innocent lives.
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Timothy
Men of Steel
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
Posts: 8,716
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Post by Timothy on May 8, 2008 6:17:39 GMT -5
I'm going to go with Miss Wolf on this one. When a hero like Superman or Batman just punish villians by sending them into a place like arkham, the villians always escape and kill more people. Anti-heros like the punisher who kill the criminal end up saving more innocent lives. And while I understand and respect that philosophy, I have to ask this; how would that make the hero any different from the criminals he/she fights? Wouldn't that, in effect, be state/city-sanctioned murder? Perhaps the difference here is a difference of missions; Punisher is out to eliminate criminals, whereas Batman is out to eliminate crime. |
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Post by Papa Smurf on May 9, 2008 15:40:46 GMT -5
The major difference would be that the hero is saving lives when he kills the criminal.
As for the purposes of these two people, without removing the criminals themselves Batman fails to remove crime. Many of the villians he deals with are repeat offenders. It's the same for The Flash, Superman, and almost all of the No-kill heros. At least with the deadly heros you know that the villians wont usually come back.
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Timothy
Men of Steel
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
Posts: 8,716
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Post by Timothy on May 9, 2008 20:21:32 GMT -5
The major difference would be that the hero is saving lives when he kills the criminal. He doesn't even consider root causes for crime such as poverty, desperation or addiction. He simply goes guns a'blazing into a situation. Batman, in the guise of Bruce Wayne, attempts to alleviate these social factors in crime through his philanthropic efforts. However, Batman values life; his parents were taken away from him and he vowed never to let anyone else suffer the same fate. The Punisher lost his family and decided to fight gunmen with guns; his is a quest of vengeance and that will never change. Batman's is a quest for justice; essentially, he is a "special forces" version of a police officer... And police officers are not judge, jury and executioner wrapped in one package. When I think of heroes like that, I think of the following Friedrich Nietzsche quote; "And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." I can root for the Punisher as a villain eliminating other villains, but at the end of the day the lesser of two evils is still evil. Using lethal force to stop lethal force just seems like an "eye for an eye" kind of situation. In the words of the Flash from Justice League Unlimited, "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." |
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Post by saberwolf on May 10, 2008 8:25:33 GMT -5
i have to go with the punisher on the matter people.
the guy lost his family, everyone and everything that he ever held dear to him in life in that sense the guy is trapped in a sort of living death
way i see it he is what batman would become if he ever allowed himself to be completely consumed by the darkness within
each hero has a point in their life , an event that caneither make or break them.
one that can at times change them for the worst when the greif becomes to great for the hero to bear in life
way i see it a person can either learn to control their inner darkside and use it as a so called forbidden strength oftheir person in the name of the greater good when the only way to resolve the vioent matter in question is by fighting fire with fire and darkness with darkness
or that person can instead allow their inner darkside to consume and to destroy them throughout their life time
me i figure batman and punisher are 2 opposite sides of the same coin all together
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Timothy
Men of Steel
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
Posts: 8,716
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Post by Timothy on May 10, 2008 12:15:03 GMT -5
i have to go with the punisher on the matter people. the guy lost his family, everyone and everything that he ever held dear to him in life in that sense the guy is trapped in a sort of living death The problem, however, is that he vents his frustrations, griefs and emotions of loss onto others; he views criminals as unrepentant and thusly deserving of his judgment. What makes Frank Castle qualified to judge who deserves to live and who deserves to die? Exactly! There were some great crossover comics from the 90's where Batman and Punisher "teamed up." However, the comics always ended with them attempting to figuratively or literally tear each other's throats out. The thing about Batman though is that he never crosses the line; he never kills. He guises himself in a cloak of darkness, fear and shadows, but at his heart he is a humanitarian. The Punisher, however, is an indication of how far our society wishes to go to eliminate crime. Makes perfect sense to me It also makes for better storytelling on both DC's and Marvel's part. It's like,"here's two divergent ways to handle an issue. Which one do you support?" |
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Timothy
Men of Steel
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
Posts: 8,716
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Post by Timothy on May 18, 2008 17:27:49 GMT -5
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I like the punisher and would classify him personally as a hero. His methods are brutal, but necessary and effective. I don't think it's possible to have a hero who never kills, there's just too many nuts out there who would kill before letting themselves be captured, even if it's themselves. I personally think that the punisher's justice is more ideal than Bats.'
