The Tragedy of Batman- His Greatest Enemy is....

[Jack Napier]

...Death itself.

Lou Anders's article, "Two of a Kind," addresses this:

Consider: Young Bruce Wayne was the prince of Gotham City, a billionaire's son living a life only the top 1 percent of the world could enjoy. Then, in an instant, his happiness and security were yanked away from him. That realization, the realization of the inevitability of death as the great equalizer [...] struck the young Wayne at an age way earlier than most of us ever encounter it. [...] This knowledge- and accompanying fear- of death at such an impressionable age terrified him. Too much, too soon, and he was over the edge. Like Captain Ahab, who lost his leg (and more if you read between the lines) to the White Whale, Wayne set out to prove to the universe that death could not catch him unawares again.

Batman & Robin even addressed this in having George Clooney spell it out with the line, "I spent my whole life trying to beat back Death. But I can't, can I?"

To me, Bruce Wayne ultimately does what he does in defiance of Death.
He beats back Death by putting his life on the line every night on his war on crime.
He beats it by saving innocent lives and preventing others from experiencing the loss that he did the night his parents were murdered.
And he beats it by resisting the urge to kill his enemies.

The tragedy, of course, is that he will inevitably lose.
The Joker will live on to kill someone else (as he does).
Another boy's parents are killed (and another's. And another's. Thus, all those Robins...).

Fighting Death is as much of a fool's errand as eradicating crime, but Bruce Wayne does it anyway because he can't bring himself not to.

Any thoughts?

[Timothy]

Jul 29, 2008 19:20:24 GMT -5 Jack Napier said:

...Death itself.

Lou Anders's article, "Two of a Kind," addresses this:

Consider: Young Bruce Wayne was the prince of Gotham City, a billionaire's son living a life only the top 1 percent of the world could enjoy. Then, in an instant, his happiness and security were yanked away from him. That realization, the realization of the inevitability of death as the great equalizer [...] struck the young Wayne at an age way earlier than most of us ever encounter it. [...] This knowledge- and accompanying fear- of death at such an impressionable age terrified him. Too much, too soon, and he was over the edge. Like Captain Ahab, who lost his leg (and more if you read between the lines) to the White Whale, Wayne set out to prove to the universe that death could not catch him unawares again.

Batman & Robin even addressed this in having George Clooney spell it out with the line, "I spent my whole life trying to beat back Death. But I can't, can I?"

To me, Bruce Wayne ultimately does what he does in defiance of Death.
He beats back Death by putting his life on the line every night on his war on crime.
He beats it by saving innocent lives and preventing others from experiencing the loss that he did the night his parents were murdered.
And he beats it by resisting the urge to kill his enemies.

The tragedy, of course, is that he will inevitably lose.
The Joker will live on to kill someone else (as he does).
Another boy's parents are killed (and another's. And another's. Thus, all those Robins...).

Fighting Death is as much of a fool's errand as eradicating crime, but Bruce Wayne does it anyway because he can't bring himself not to.

Any thoughts?

First of all, thank you for posting another fascinating thread in a long line of fascinating threads; Karma for you!

Second, in terms of logic, yes, I agree that fighting Death is a fool's errand. However, there is something oddly compelling about the iron will of Bruce Wayne; he combats Death and can only be stopped by Death. Nothing else on this or any other planet can stop a determined Batman.

To me, Batman is the fireman who stays behind to help as many people as possible in a raging inferno. He would lay down his life so that someone else may live, and as such, his quest to combat the forces of combustion would parallel his crusade against Death.

Edit: I'm sorry if the end rambles or is incoherent; a storm's coming my way so I've G2G now

[Jack Napier]

First of all, thank you for posting another fascinating thread in a long line of fascinating threads; Karma for you!

Thank you

Second, in terms of logic, yes, I agree that fighting Death is a fool's errand. However, there is something oddly compelling about the iron will of Bruce Wayne; he combats Death and can only be stopped by Death. Nothing else on this or any other planet can stop a determined Batman.

To me, Batman is the fireman who stays behind to help as many people as possible in a raging inferno. He would lay down his life so that someone else may live, and as such, his quest to combat the forces of combustion would parallel his crusade against Death.

I agree. It's really what makes him such a heroic figure.
One of the better things in Gotham Knight, even though I didn't care much for the animation or the stuff with Lucius in the beginning of this segment, was the end of "Field Test" when Bruce Wayne refuses to use the shield device for fear of it killing others. "I'm willing to put my life on the line if I have to. But it has to be mine. And no one else's." That line felt very much in-character

Edit: I'm sorry if the end rambles or is incoherent; a storm's coming my way so I've G2G now

No worries and I hope you make it through okay!

[Timothy]

I agree. It's really what makes him such a heroic figure.
One of the better things in Gotham Knight, even though I didn't care much for the animation or the stuff with Lucius in the beginning of this segment, was the end of "Field Test" when Bruce Wayne refuses to use the shield device for fear of it killing others. "I'm willing to put my life on the line if I have to. But it has to be mine. And no one else's." That line felt very much in-character

Definitely; I actually thought of Superman when Bruce said that line; just imagine being the most powerful person on the planet and having to make sure your attacker doesn't hurt anyone in the vicinity without too much property destruction.

Edit: I'm sorry if the end rambles or is incoherent; a storm's coming my way so I've G2G now
No worries and I hope you make it through okay!

Thanks! Last night's wasn't too bad; however, the maple trees in front of my house are curled, so it'll rain again today/tonight.

[Wolf]

It's an interesting question posed, JN. I do believe Batman more than any other superhero fights death each time he dons the suit. He has no innate powers that could edge his conscience until he caves and helps people (Spidey's an awesome example of that at work). He has no superiority complex (Like what I tend to get off of, say, Supes or Flash, no offense to fans of them) that makes him feel like he can do this without being hurt. He doesn't have that much public support when he gets any at all (unlike, well, just about every other hero/group of heroes out there except the X-men or a few other notables). He rarely allows himself any kind of backup. Yet he goes out there and fights for what's right. It's a welcome conundrum.

[Timothy]

Mar 2, 2009 19:57:15 GMT -5 Wolf said:

It's an interesting question posed, JN. I do believe Batman more than any other superhero fights death each time he dons the suit. He has no innate powers that could edge his conscience until he caves and helps people (Spidey's an awesome example of that at work).

Sans whining (see, '60's comics), I love Spidey as well

He has no superiority complex (Like what I tend to get off of, say, Supes or Flash, no offense to fans of them) that makes him feel like he can do this without being hurt.

That's a good point, one that was cleverly the focus of a what-if story I own called JLA: Act of God in which every "metahuman" (DC Comic's encompassing term for mutants, super heroes, and extra-normal beings) on earth loses their powers.

He doesn't have that much public support when he gets any at all (unlike, well, just about every other hero/group of heroes out there except the X-men or a few other notables). He rarely allows himself any kind of backup. Yet he goes out there and fights for what's right. It's a welcome conundrum.

To draw a film example, The Dark Knight, IMO, did an excellent job with its ending in showcasing your point. Batman does what he does because he can do greater good as an enduring symbol than as an "ordinary man."

[Wolf]

I'm actually not that big of a spiderman fan. I used that as an example merely because it fit. However, I'm glad you were able to understand what I was getting at.

As for your What-if, I would like the chance to read that sometime. It would be interesting to see how closely their conclusion of how it would go matches my own. Shoot, it would be fascinating in it's own right. That must be right up there in intrigue value as my copy of Wolverine Dies.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that in TDK. It built well off of the first movie and held relatively true to how Bats really was.