Timothy
Men of Steel
He's a Crafty-Sort of Fellow
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Post by Timothy on Mar 14, 2008 14:06:17 GMT -5
ooohhh a new challenger appears! and raising a good point as well. that's the real question isnt it? what is free will? To debate whether we have something or not we shouldknow what that something is, shouldn't we? and did I really have the free will to ask that? Well, Wikipedia has a rather interesting sound byte from its article on free will; . Fate is convenient in that we only examine our "fates" after the fact or after events have occurred. Thus, we have the luxury of "hindsight" to analyze our actions (or, to "play Monday night quarterback" as one of my professors put it ;D ). There are biological motivators which are, for the most part, unseen or thought of prior to introspection. We, as a species, are motivated to seek out partners to "continue the story" of life, which has become second nature to the human psyche. Therefore, we have no control over the biological fact that we want to procreate and create new generations of human beings. We do, however (and, again, IMO), have the ability to choose what outcomes we wish for ourselves. Everyone has free will, IMO, when they discover that the only person preventing them from achieving their full-potential is their reflection in the mirror. No one can make you do anything you don't want to do unless you let them or allow them to do so.
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Post by Papa Smurf on Mar 15, 2008 2:49:16 GMT -5
I have to argue against that, if free will doesn't exist, then even your thoughts and actions for or against something would be predetermined.
if, for example, you were given a choice enter one of three doors, you might think you are choosing the door and might have a full and rational reason for choosing a door, but the is no reason to prove that your thoughts themselves were predetermined or not.
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Timothy
Men of Steel
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Post by Timothy on Mar 15, 2008 7:52:00 GMT -5
In that case, Free Will, like God and ghosts, could be considered a pseudoscience in that they can not be proven or disproved. That doesn't mean that we can't believe (or not believe, for that matter) in them, but it does mean that they can not be scientifically proven.
Ok, here's an idea; what if we have a sort of modified version of "free will" like the kind you see in "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" style books. All outcomes are predetermined, but we have the <i>choice</i> to determine our own "fate".
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Post by Papa Smurf on Mar 16, 2008 14:57:31 GMT -5
hmmm... but would that really be a free will? Door number one, two, or three? if the possibilities are curtailed, is the choice really free?
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Wolf
Mysterious Stranger
"I have a shotgun."
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Post by Wolf on Mar 16, 2008 15:05:02 GMT -5
It depends... aren't all decisions bound to come up with preset (even if unknown) outcomes that we hope are for the best? Similarly, aren't we all preset to hope for that which we believe is the best for us regardless of the consequenses to others? Aren't even the things we hope for the best for others reflective of something that would benefit us as well, a case of if they're happy, I'm happy? Therefore, is it ever truly free will or are we set to continually choose that which is best (we think) for us and therefore set on a preset path?
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Timothy
Men of Steel
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Post by Timothy on Mar 16, 2008 16:45:55 GMT -5
It depends... aren't all decisions bound to come up with preset (even if unknown) outcomes that we hope are for the best? Everyone hopes that their actions are for the best. The only ways that you could know the outcome of an action prior to its completion would be to either glimpse the future or study your past experiences. Experience breeds wisdom over time, and from there, potentially harmful or hazardous courses will be avoided. I think that's more of a deonotological way of looking at life. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, but it's not my preferential philosophical way of viewing the world. This, to me, sounds more like utilitarianism, which can best be summarized from the "Greatest Happiness Principle", or, ""the greatest good for the greatest number." Nothing is preset, the same way that no one is predetermined to fail in life. Since the present is built upon the foundations of the past, it is very easy to say that anything is predetermined when you arrive in the future. However, I do feel that there is a force beyond human perception, (including that of logic), which may or may not influence (but in no way predetermine) aspects of our lives. It is from this perspective that I draw upon my own deeply personal religious beliefs.
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Wolf
Mysterious Stranger
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Post by Wolf on Mar 16, 2008 16:52:04 GMT -5
...You're religious?
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Timothy
Men of Steel
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Post by Timothy on Mar 17, 2008 8:42:42 GMT -5
Yes, but I feel that it's best if I fork this thread to carry on this particular conversation.
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Wolf
Mysterious Stranger
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Post by Wolf on Apr 1, 2008 17:31:28 GMT -5
Ok. But yeah, there are some things that neither science, nor religion have been able to answer. Perhaps we will never know if we have free will. Just because we say we do doesn't mean we do... but like tootsie pops, the world will never know.
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Post by Papa Smurf on Apr 1, 2008 22:58:35 GMT -5
Tootsie poops. And i did not have the free will not to say it. And i didnt have the free will to not say that either... or that.
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