Re-Designing The Batman Rogue's Gallery

[Jack Napier]

Split from: Anthony+Michael+Hall+in+TDK%2C+but+as+WHO%3F%21

admin said:

I guess the Riddler would make an interesting villain. Personally, I wouldn't want to see another costume covered in question marks; I prefer something subtler, such as a large green question mark on a black silk tie.

I know the comment was referring more towards the films than towards the Riddler in general, but I thought I may as well do a spin-off of Timothy's thread on Re-Designing the Superman Villains with one on the Batman villains.

First off, I prefer the Post-Crisis explanation for the name in which Riddler was born "Edward Nashton" but changed his name to "Edward Nigma." To me, this makes a lot more sense than a guy born with the name E. Nigma ends up becoming obsessed with puzzles and becoming the Riddler. It also demonstrates a progression in Nashton's obsession in which he grows to christen himself as "E. Nigma."

As for the costume, I never understood why he wore the thin mask. It's worse than Robin's mask in how little it covers his face. Plus, I was never under the impression (besides Batman Forever) that the Riddler had a secret identity to maintain that would require the mask.
One of my old friends in the BOF forum, Nightwing5, recommended sunglasses instead of the mask. This would keep the standard look of a Riddler whose eyes are covered, but would also seem to make more sense since the mask is so extraenous. The sunglasses could also feed into his inferiority complex: nobody is good enough to be able to look him in the eye. (Naturally when Batman beats the crap out of him, the sunglasses get broken off and Riddler isn't so high & mighty after all).

Like with the mask, I never got why Riddler was in a skintight suit. I'd go with the suit and I also agree with Timothy on having something subtler than the typical one in which he's in bright green and covered in question marks. Wouldn't want to tone it down too much, but I'd definitely have question marks covering his tie.

As for the origin, I always thought it was more unique for Nigma to become the Riddler as a way to challenge Batman. I noticed that the cartoon and film adaptations of Riddler always have Nigma becoming Riddler out of revenge for his boss or some dominant businessman figure. Having a character become a Batman villain out of revenge, though, isn't exactly new. Just think of the various Batman villains who turned to crime as a means of coping with something that had been done to them.
I'd like the Riddler to be different from the rest in his motives. Perhaps feed a bit of the Post-Crisis Hugo Strange here: As a lonely man with an inferiority complex and an obsession with puzzles, Nigma takes interest in the new figure in Gotham- Batman- who is solving all of the crimes in Gotham that the police have been unable to solve. Nigma sees this as a threat...and reacts accordingly.

[Timothy]

batmangelus said:

Split from: Anthony+Michael+Hall+in+TDK%2C+but+as+WHO%3F%21

admin said:

I guess the Riddler would make an interesting villain. Personally, I wouldn't want to see another costume covered in question marks; I prefer something subtler, such as a large green question mark on a black silk tie.

I know the comment was referring more towards the films than towards the Riddler in general, but I thought I may as well do a spin-off of Timothy's thread on Re-Designing the Superman Villains with one on the Batman villains.

First off, I prefer the Post-Crisis explanation for the name in which Riddler was born "Edward Nashton" but changed his name to "Edward Nigma." To me, this makes a lot more sense than a guy born with the name E. Nigma ends up becoming obsessed with puzzles and becoming the Riddler. It also demonstrates a progression in Nashton's obsession in which he grows to christen himself as "E. Nigma."

Yeah, him being born with that ridiculous name and the becoming obsessed with puzzles made about as much sense as the episode of "The Batman" where a guy gained control of time just by becoming obsessed with clocks

As for the costume, I never understood why he wore the thin mask. It's worse than Robin's mask in how little it covers his face. Plus, I was never under the impression (besides Batman Forever) that the Riddler had a secret identity to maintain that would require the mask.

I guess the only time a mask would be useful would be for humor. Do you remember the episode of JLU "The Great Brain Robbery"? Well, when Lex Luthor switched minds with The Flash, he thought he could gain a future advantage over the hero by discovering his secret identity. However, when Lex pulls off Flash's mask in the men's room of the Watchtower and stares into the face of Wally West, all he can say is, "... ... I have no idea who this is." To me, not only is a moment like that funny for the Riddler, it's also tragic. After all, isn't the Riddler's main motivation to gain attention?

One of my old friends in the BOF forum, Nightwing5, recommended sunglasses instead of the mask. This would keep the standard look of a Riddler whose eyes are covered, but would also seem to make more sense since the mask is so extraenous. The sunglasses could also feed into his inferiority complex: nobody is good enough to be able to look him in the eye. (Naturally when Batman beats the crap out of him, the sunglasses get broken off and Riddler isn't so high & mighty after all).

For the first time (ever), I really enjoyed one of Alex Rosses' redesigns in that of the Riddler for "Justice". In the series, Riddler wears a pair of light goggles that allow him to see clearly, while his new technology induces hallucinations in part of the brain, allowing him to create virtual puzzles within the brain. Yes, I realize that this is part "Jim Carrey Riddler" and "The Scarecrow", but, hey, it could work

Like with the mask, I never got why Riddler was in a skintight suit. I'd go with the suit and I also agree with Timothy on having something subtler than the typical one in which he's in bright green and covered in question marks. Wouldn't want to tone it down too much, but I'd definitely have question marks covering his tie.

As much as I don't like the skintight suit, I'd use it (possibly) for humor in featuring it as, say, his pajamas or bathing suit. But if that didn't happen, yeah, I'd ditch it all together.

As for the origin, I always thought it was more unique for Nigma to become the Riddler as a way to challenge Batman. I noticed that the cartoon and film adaptations of Riddler always have Nigma becoming Riddler out of revenge for his boss or some dominant businessman figure. Having a character become a Batman villain out of revenge, though, isn't exactly new. Just think of the various Batman villains who turned to crime as a means of coping with something that had been done to them.

I'd like the Riddler to be different from the rest in his motives. Perhaps feed a bit of the Post-Crisis Hugo Strange here: As a lonely man with an inferiority complex and an obsession with puzzles, Nigma takes interest in the new figure in Gotham- Batman- who is solving all of the crimes in Gotham that the police have been unable to solve. Nigma sees this as a threat...and reacts accordingly.

Agreed, and I believe the best reference for this would be Detective Comics 1995 Annual dealing with the Riddler.

[Jack Napier]

I guess the only time a mask would be useful would be for humor. Do you remember the episode of JLU "The Great Brain Robbery"? Well, when Lex Luthor switched minds with The Flash, he thought he could gain a future advantage over the hero by discovering his secret identity. However, when Lex pulls off Flash's mask in the men's room of the Watchtower and stares into the face of Wally West, all he can say is, "... ... I have no idea who this is." To me, not only is a moment like that funny for the Riddler, it's also tragic. After all, isn't the Riddler's main motivation to gain attention?

I haven't seen that episode and I haven't watch JLU on a regular basis (which I'm not proud of. I should be watching more of that than The Batman, but anyways...), but that does sound like a good scene.

In the series, Riddler wears a pair of light goggles that allow him to see clearly, while his new technology induces hallucinations in part of the brain, allowing him to create virtual puzzles within the brain. Yes, I realize that this is part "Jim Carrey Riddler" and "The Scarecrow", but, hey, it could work

Indeed. Ross certainly has an interesting take on some of these Batman villains. According to the book Mythology, his version of Joker's origin is that the chemical bath just gave the Joker the white skin and he dyed his hair green and put lipstick on to complete his new image.

I believe the best reference for this would be Detective Comics 1995 Annual dealing with the Riddler.

Cool. What happens in it?

I'll be thinking of other villains soon to add here.

[Timothy]

batmangelus said:

Indeed. Ross certainly has an interesting take on some of these Batman villains. According to the book Mythology, his version of Joker's origin is that the chemical bath just gave the Joker the white skin and he dyed his hair green and put lipstick on to complete his new image.

I know that this is slightly off-topic, but do you think that Nolan will do something like this for Ledger?

Cool. What happens in it?

Well, the whole story revolves around the Riddler talking with his therapist in Arkham; he discusses his motivations for turning to crime, along with his first run-ins with The Dark Knight. The best part, IMO, is that he outlines every inch of his psyche and no one was listening to him... His therapists were on a coffee break, and when they find him, he's catatonic from stress and rage at not having any attention payed to him.

[Jack Napier]

I know that this is slightly off-topic, but do you think that Nolan will do something like this for Ledger?

Certainly a possibility.

Well, the whole story revolves around the Riddler talking with his therapist in Arkham; he discusses his motivations for turning to crime, along with his first run-ins with The Dark Knight. The best part, IMO, is that he outlines every inch of his psyche and no one was listening to him... His therapists were on a coffee break, and when they find him, he's catatonic from stress and rage at not having any attention payed to him.

Sounds pretty cool.

[Timothy]

This is not really a redesign, as it's something that I DON'T want to happen to the following character; turning Man-Bat into a ninja, as seen in last year's "Batman & Son" storyline by Grant Morrison... That whole plot point never did sit well with me...

[Jack Napier]

^ To add to that, I wouldn't have the Scarecrow turn into Scarebeast. I've never read a comic with the Scarebeast, but the concept never sat well with me. There are enough characters who transform into supernatural creatures as it is.

[Timothy]

batmangelus said:

^ To add to that, I wouldn't have the Scarecrow turn into Scarebeast. I've never read a comic with the Scarebeast, but the concept never sat well with me. There are enough characters who transform into supernatural creatures as it is.

I found most of the single issues in the bargain bin to my comics shop, and yes, I agree. As a writer, I think that's one of the dumbest plot devices ever concocted (and I'm including pre-Crisis plot devices as well)

[Jack Napier]

I'd count him as the most important member of the Rogue's Gallery- Joe Chill, the killer of Bruce Wayne's parents.

First off, the name. When I first mentioned this guy's name to a friend of mine, he thought of "Mr. Freeze," lol. In Len Wein's The Untold Legend of the Batman, it is said that his mother's name is Mrs. Chilton, leading me to believe that his real name is Joe, or Joseph, Chilton.

Secondly, there are several issues surrounding Chill's character:
Does Batman find his parents' killer or not? If his parents' killer hadn't been caught, wouldn't Batman want to investigate his parents' murder? Surely the World's Greatest Detective would figure it out over time?
Also, did Chill do it because he was hired to do it? Or was he someone desperate for the money?
I sought to address these when coming up for my "redesign" of "Joe Chill."

Here's my take on it (somewhat inspired by previous comics concerning the subject):
Joseph Chilton was a petty thug. One night, he tried to rob the Waynes. Because of the hat he was wearing in the lighting, it was hard to see Chilton's face (this is basically from Loeb's intro to Superman/Batman and I loved the idea). When Thomas Wayne attempted to fight back, Chilton shot him. Martha Wayne's screaming lead Chilton to shoot her as well. The sole witness, Bruce Wayne, would have been shot as well if Chilton had not heard the sound of police sirens, which caused him to flee.
The murder of his parents would traumatize Bruce Wayne and forever change his course in life. He would play the scene over and over again in his head. Parts of it would push him towards his destiny.
The police sirens that caused Chilton to flee had given Bruce hope that the police would track down his parents' killer. When Chilton was never found, however, Bruce's disappointment helped push him into considering to fight crime himself.
His father's attempt to fight back would push Bruce Wayne into becoming one of the world's greatest martial artists so that he would never be helpless in protecting others.
Chilton's face- hidden in the shadows- would later lead Bruce, as Batman, to use the shadows against the criminals who would harm the innocents of Gotham.

And once Bruce Wayne trained himself to fight crime outside of the law, he became the Batman. While fighting crime- from the street scum to the mobsters who ruled the city- the Batman had a case that he made himself investigate: the murders of Thomas and Martha Wayne. It was a cold case, which simply made it harder, especially when the police were not on his side.

I haven't exactly worked the details out yet (perhaps I'll someday write my own Batman story arc for the comics that involves this), but eventually- after talking to the detectives who investigated the murders and looking over any remaining evidence- Batman pinpoints Joseph Chilton as a suspect, only to find that Chilton died years ago. He was murdered by mobsters after failing to pay the money he borrowed from them- an ironic end for someone who killed the wealthiest couple in Gotham for money.
Batman now believed that he would never have the chance to truly avenge his parents, but he soon realized that he was avenging them everyday by fighting the crime on the streets.

[Timothy]

Surely the World's Greatest Detective would figure it out over time?

On the flip-side, this could be a great chance to show that contrary to previous incarnations of the character, Bruce doesn't know everything... This could be his ultimate ulterior motive; "prove" to himself that he is the greatest by solving his own parent's murders.

Also, did Chill do it because he was hired to do it? Or was he someone desperate for the money?

I think it's a little bit of both, because his situation reminds me of this fantastic independent comic called Hench, which revolved around the life and times of a low-level henchman as he tried to raise money to support himself and his family by working for local super villains. Chill could be revealed to have been hired to do it, which could certainly be plausible, but he must have some underlying reason to do so... Money is entirely plausible when you're desperate and willing to use a gun to solve your problems.

Here's my take on it (somewhat inspired by previous comics concerning the subject):
Joseph Chilton was a petty thug. One night, he tried to rob the Waynes. Because of the hat he was wearing in the lighting, it was hard to see Chilton's face (this is basically from Loeb's intro to Superman/Batman and I loved the idea). When Thomas Wayne attempted to fight back, Chilton shot him. Martha Wayne's screaming lead Chilton to shoot her as well. The sole witness, Bruce Wayne, would have been shot as well if Chilton had not heard the sound of police sirens, which caused him to flee.
The murder of his parents would traumatize Bruce Wayne and forever change his course in life. He would play the scene over and over again in his head. Parts of it would push him towards his destiny.
The police sirens that caused Chilton to flee had given Bruce hope that the police would track down his parents' killer. When Chilton was never found, however, Bruce's disappointment helped push him into considering to fight crime himself.
His father's attempt to fight back would push Bruce Wayne into becoming one of the world's greatest martial artists so that he would never be helpless in protecting others.
Chilton's face- hidden in the shadows- would later lead Bruce, as Batman, to use the shadows against the criminals who would harm the innocents of Gotham.

I really like this interpretation; karma for you